Death of a Narcissist: Insights to Vesta

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It is said that Saddam Hussein was one the worlds greatest Narcissists along with Adolf Hitler, Jim Jones and Elvis Presley. There are many high profile Narcissistic personality types who have not suffered such unmitigating fates as Saddam, however to the narcissistic person, perhaps death seems like a preferred option when the object of ones affection dries up.

We live in a modern world of self expression where the focus on individuation and becoming ‘whole’ unto ourself has been the hallmark of psychotherapies for decades. In psychoanalysis we interpret dreams and visualize unconscious parts of self in order to know and love ourselves more so. In Gestalt therapies we project parts of self to reject or accept parts of self and redecide about the self. In Talk therapies we talk about self to invest in our identity as a tangible and unique concept compared to others. We investigate the Astrology chart to know more about the parts of self,  to gather a whole picture to hopefully sustain reflections of the self, to love and cherish.    

One could say such focus on the needs of self is honoring and protecting the “flame of individuality”, the hearth of our inner home. Our identity and connection to “the shack of self centre”.

The mythology surrounding the Asteroid Vestain my mind, encaptulates the focus on self and is the archetype of the narcissistic process. When Vesta is predominant in the astrology chart the personality seems to indicate enough ‘invested’ self interest to gain popularity in some form or other.  The saying; “the body is the temple of the soul” is also an interesting quote that relates narcisism to the good or not so good aspects of a healthy spirit. 

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Narcissus and Self Reflective Mythology     

Some accounts suggest that Narcissus came to drink from the pond and fell in love with his reflection. Since he could not obtain the object of his love (in the water) he died in sorrow by the same pond. Others suggest that his great love for his twin sister and consequent grief over her death was appeased by staring at his reflection in the pond. Sounds like projective identification to me.  So Narcissus did not eat or drink life sustaining water from the pond and he eventually wasted away dying by looking at himself.

Some Modern Narcissistic Profiles

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Warren “get what he wants” Beatty

Warren has Vesta in the tenth house, in the sign of Cancer. Interesting to note his Moon also conjunct Black Moon Lilith.

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Madonna

Vesta in the eleventh house and the sign of Cancer. Moon conjunct ascendant and sextile to Vesta.

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Jim Jones         Cult Leader “The Life and Death of The People Temple”

Ascendant ruler Saturn, conjunct Vesta in the first house. There are a number of aspects to Jim Jones’ Vesta and Saturn in the chart. The opposition of Pluto and Jupiter are two of them.

 

                                                                     Jim Jones Chart

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                                    Picasso

Saturn Conjunct Vesta in the tenth house.

Vesta conjunct Ascendant People

Dawn Fraser       Olymic swimmer

Germain Greer    (Note Black Moon Lilith conjunct Vesta at the Ascendant)

Rupert Murdoch

Tammy Wynette

Vesta Conjunct Mid Heaven People

Azaria Chamberland

Karen Carpenter   (Sun Conjunct Vesta-Mc)

Rock Hudson

Grace Kelly

Annie Lennox

Sophia Loren

Vesta Opposite Ascendant People

Bill Clinton             (Mars Neptune opposite Vesta)

Carl Jung                 The Narcissistic Therapist  (Sun Conjunct Vesta, Sun rules 7th house)

Victor Hugo

Omar Shariff    (Mars Conjunct Vesta in Aries)

Bruce Springsteen

Today the Ingress into Pisces sees the Sun conjunct Vesta and perhaps is somewhat important with the coming Lunar Eclipse. In Part Two of Death of a Narcissist we explore the symbology of Vesta, the Development of Personality and the Astrology of Narcissism.

Kingsley   

62 Responses to “Death of a Narcissist: Insights to Vesta”


  1. 1 Graffiti February 19, 2008 at 19:53

    Interesting post kingsley,

    More on the different personality types would be interesting

    Graffiti

  2. 2 kingsley February 19, 2008 at 21:07

    Thanks Graffiti, perhaps I will do the Anti Social personality next? I will have to search around for some top crims and conmen.

    best

    Kingsley

  3. 3 Aliza February 19, 2008 at 21:54

    Do you see a strong or prominent Vesta as a marker for fame? (Or infamy…)

    What is the connecion between narcissism and the fame-drive?

    I know it’s not so simple…. but I never thought of Vesta in this way. Saw her as the concentration/focus… but the “n” word adds a whole new range of meaning for her.

  4. 4 kingsley February 19, 2008 at 22:21

    When Vesta is on the angle or conjunct asc ruler Aliza there does tend to be a focus on the “self” in some way. Perhaps I am using charts of well known people to make my point about the need for Narcissistic personality types to get “more of themselves” in some way. They are attention seeking by nature and whether that is negative attention or not, is up to the person and the rest of their chart.

    Usually people who are driven to fame, like the product of the attention they receive. The focus as you say is the point where that attention is sought according to Vesta’s location.

    Fame has much to do with the tenth house sign and ruler and other aspects in the chart, so a predominent Vesta alone does not guarantee that fame. One can have varying degrees of success or infamy in relation to the focus of their self centered style. Perhaps my next post will clarify your questions more so.
    kingsley

  5. 5 roses February 20, 2008 at 10:37

    Is that really a picture of Picasso? Wow!

    roses

  6. 6 MAD4TRUTH February 21, 2008 at 03:03

    It gives me chills to look at the photo of saddam to know that we homo sapiens kill eachother even though we have the ability to control our minds and use diplomacy and critical thinking.
    Have we not yet evolved enough to enjoy humanity in peace and harmony?
    Are we dumber than a mere tree which has branches smart enough not to fight amongst themselves?

    What is the reason that astrology encompasses narcissist, are we not yet worthy of god/goddess kinship and qualities.
    Where does all this fear and hate and anger come from? Are we just animals that talk.

  7. 7 kingsley February 21, 2008 at 08:29

    we are a brutal lot Mad4truth.

    nothing wrong with being a narcissist mad4truth, well only if self and others suffer perhaps. I hear your questions.

    kingsley

  8. 8 kingsley February 21, 2008 at 13:05

    Mad4truth; You ask “What is the reason that astrology encompasses narcissist, are we not worthy of god/godess kinship and qualities”

    I hear what you say Mad4thruth and yes we deserve godess status in relation to individual self esteem and assertive expressions of our personality etc, however unfortunately we are not gods. We were born mortal and the hopefully in the image of the Gods helps to guide us torwards better qualities of our nature as human beings. There is always a darker side to the gods and darker gods full stop. I don’t think that anyone can alter the fact that darker sides emerge in human nature. The impulse to act in detrimental ways is always there, so humans tend to do act that way. Because they can.

    The Vestal virgins and the temple of vesta seems pure in nature to me, the idea of passion and protecting what is important in the flame. Its just unfortunate that humans get sidetracked in the way they utilize passion and their ideology or politics seem to provide the framework for the darker side compared to the kinship qualities you mention.

    So until we reach godlike states in the spirit world, humans will try to replicate the immortality and the power of gods here on earth however they see fit. Unfortunately for them and unlike gods and godesses, they are bound by gravity,

    kingsley

  9. 9 Karen March 26, 2008 at 10:37

    I have vesta conjunct my midheaven in cancer which is also trine my natal saturn in the 5th house of pisces. Any comments.

  10. 10 kingsley March 27, 2008 at 14:16

    Hello Karen, Vesta is in the same location for moi! There is a couple of significant factors involed in my opinion. One, is that a sister or sibling has played an integral part in a psuedo parenting role. Two, the motivation or passionate involvement in work or activities that ultimately results in some kind of recognition in life. Its not that Vesta alone can bring popularity or fame, however it certainly seems to identify the seeking of recognition for self. Vesta is the hearth of the home or hearth of the self in my view. One could be good at promoting “self” with this placement of Vesta.

    best

    Kingsley

  11. 11 mima March 28, 2008 at 23:17

    I have vesta conjunct my midheaven and Jupiter in Gemini, square with Saturn in 7th pisces, and uran and pluto in 1st house in virgo. Any comments

  12. 12 kingsley March 29, 2008 at 06:05

    Hi Mima, no matter what the 10th ruler aspects are. or for that matter any configuration in the chart showing challenge, Vesta at the midheaven will show a motivation around ones own activities, ones life directed in ways that suits self. One could need that kind of focus in lieu of the challenging configurations in the chart and sometimes its may not be so clear to the person at first. Its ok to be concerned with “self” and the concept of me me me. Helps if one knows how and where that happens.

    k

  13. 13 MK August 4, 2008 at 08:49

    Hi, I had transiting Vesta conjunct my 10th house of Pisces at 23 idegrees and my 93 year old father died. I also around this time became very interested in narcissism. My father and my mother, who is still living, were narcissists! I have Uranus ready to conjunct this 10th house point, a which will kick off a grand trine with my 1st and 5th house planets Ii can’t wait to see the results. Great website.

  14. 14 kingsley August 4, 2008 at 09:50

    Glad you like the Blog MK. Uranus tends to bring some surprising qualities to ones career at the tenth house. The tenth cusp says a lot about ego consciousness too. Perhaps you are ready for some changes in that department right about now. All the best

    Kingsley

  15. 15 Teresa August 24, 2008 at 13:25

    Kingsley, I’ve been looking for more info on vesta but haven’t found much and was interested by your post on vesta. I’m experiencing a renaissance of pleasant progressions along with difficult transits. But one that I wonder about is progressed mars opposing progressed vesta, H3 to H9, virgo to pisces. (Vesta is natally H8 conjunct aquarian saturn H8 both opposition virgo venus H2.) With your mention of narcissism, how would you figure the cusp of H9 for significance, or is narcissism really indicated by the angles?

  16. 16 kingsley August 24, 2008 at 14:45

    Hello Teresa

    Vesta in close conjunction with planets or angles seems to have something to say about narcissism in my view. I am not so sure about the progressed Mars opposition though. If prog Mars is triggering off the Venus opp Saturn/Vesta natal configuration that may be another story. Any progressed planetary aspects must be taken with a degree of qualification in the scheme of things; such as the Prog lunation phase and position of prog moon against the natal.

    If Vesta and Saturn combined with the Venus opposition means how you might explore the concept of self (me me me) then prog Mars may indicate more energy coming into this system. Perhaps more self worth according to how close prog mars and natal Venus are etc. If it is a ‘tight’ system by degrees then I would say that Venus is getting a boost. Otherwise Vesta’s meaning here and with any prog planet (not luminary) to Vesta is neither her nor there.

    I am glad you are having a renaissance of sorts, I am hoping that is helping you to please yourself more so Teresa.

    kingsley

  17. 17 Karen September 12, 2008 at 10:42

    Thanks for a great article, Kingsley!

    I have Vesta (r) at 12 degrees Cancer in my 7th, loosely conjunct DC, and opposing Mars at 10 degrees Capricorn in the 1st. It also trines my exact Saturn/Eros conjunction in Pisces in the 2nd. It also makes a loose trine to Chiron and Ceres at 17/19 Pisces in the 2nd. Any thoughts? I have been intrigued by Vesta for years, but have never run onto any information comprehensive enough to explain this to me. I feel intuitively that Vesta is very strong in my chart for some reason.

  18. 18 kingsley September 12, 2008 at 11:25

    Hi Karen, Vesta in the seventh and opp Mars will tend to make an emphasis. I wouldn’t worry about the other aspects though. I wonder whether Mars is the Almutem ruler of your ascendant if its in the first house? I would say off hand, that you may have some leader ship qualities to develop and that will be helped along by Vesta’s focus on your needs. Not a bad configuation for searching out and achieving some kind of recognition in your life.

    tell me about what you do

    k

  19. 19 Myra November 1, 2008 at 22:52

    Hi all

    I came across this site and was very interested to read the ‘Vesta’ comments.

    I have noticed that my progressed Vesta and progressed Venus are exactly conjunct at 18 degs in my 8th house Aries. This conjunction seems to form a Star of David with natal planets/asteroids that is the Moon 20 degs Gemini 10th house: Pluto 16 degs in Leo 12th house: Neptune 16 degs In Libra 2nd house; Ceres/Chiron at 18 and 21 degs in Sagittarius 4th house and Venus at 19 degs in Aquarius 6th house.

    Transitting Pluto is making its way to form a grand cross with my Mercury/Sun at 1 and 3 degs in Aries 8th house; Uranus 1 degree in Cancer 11th house and Mars 1 deg in Libra 2nd house. As my natal Pluto is exactly midpoint of Mars and Uranus in my natal chart I’m a bit worried about this aspect.

    My progressed Ascendant is also opposing my Sun.

    Could anyone highlight what may be going on?

  20. 20 kingsley November 2, 2008 at 06:45

    Hello Myra thanks for the run down on your chart at the moment. It does seem that the asteroids play a big role in your life. There is a fair bit of crossing over between natal and Progressed here and I am not sure how the “star of david” has any effect. Best to keep that Moon in Gemini as simple as possible. The impotant factors are about Venus, and the nature of Venus in you chart when considering prog vest-venus. Your natal Moon is trine Venus in the 6th, so you are building up a creative displays and heading towards recognition for the type of service you love to offer.

    Prog Ascendant opp Sun; that means your natal sun is about a pisces? Perhaps this can be about exposure whether you like that or not. I dont look at those trine aspects in progressed or if they are not partile at least.

    I wonder how you can shine brightly (moon in tenth) in some service to others and get the recognition you deserve? You do deserve it do you not?

    kingsley

  21. 21 kingsley November 2, 2008 at 07:01

    I mean Taurus natal sun.

    k

  22. 22 Myra November 2, 2008 at 22:12

    Hi Kingsley

    Thanks very much for your prompt response. It’s really appreciated.

    It’s strange that you mention ‘shining brightly in some service to others’. I have been going through a VERY difficult time that seems to have impacted on EVER area of my life. The most major issue at this time is a profound concern for my grandchildren. I’ve been worn out with it all and extremely depressed to the point of neglecting myself/my health – not shining brightly at all. In fact at the lowest point ever.

    As a result of these experiences, I’ve been going through a period of deep reflection and only this morning have made some (many) profound decisions relating to how I am going to move forward. One of these decisions relates to working with reiki. I wonder if the progressed Vesta/Venus conjunction has anything to do with this?

    Once again thanks for spending the time considering my aspects.

    Myra

    PS My natal Sun is at 3 degrees in Aries (8th house).

  23. 23 kingsley November 3, 2008 at 06:50

    Well I am glad you have decided to focus on yourself (Vesta) Myra. In my view that is coming out into the light to shine. Its ok to be focussed on the self. I am all for the principle of ‘thinking about self’.

    Good for you Myra

    k

  24. 24 Clare March 3, 2009 at 03:18

    If Vesta is in the 7th house of the natal chart, can that lead to a predisposition to relationships with narcissists?

  25. 25 kingsley March 3, 2009 at 08:06

    Hello Clare, what you say is entirely possible. However it is your chart with Vesta in 7th. You may attract these types for some reason Clare. I would have to know more to make further comment.

    kingsley

  26. 26 Atalanta June 30, 2009 at 23:03

    I have a close conjunction of Saturn-Pallas-Vesta in Capricorn 6th house, in t-square with Libra/3rd Sun and Cancer/12th Mars. My sun is also conjunct asteroid Medusa. I am a workaholic and very focussed in voluntary service involving forms of spiritual writing. I guess I am narcissistic about doing the best job possible. However I wonder how to get some ‘balance’ out of this t-square, whether my sun is calling for LESS fixation with ‘work’? I have had many and seemingly increasing eye difficulties (Pallas). Any advice would be much appreciated, thank you.

  27. 27 kingsley July 1, 2009 at 10:25

    Hello Atlanta, I understand when you say “narcissistic about doing the best job possible”. Its ok if your work ethic is based around achieving for yourself. Work is your world it seems and I bet you do a very good job indeed.

    The Sun in Libra likes to achieve balance and harmony. The T square with the Libra Sun is driven to work hard and to achieve some kind of perfection. Being realistic about outcomes and expectations comes to mind Atalanta.

    I dont know what your Sun is calling for Atalanta, perhaps you are right, however I could imagine the Libra Sun wanting Mars and Saturn to be nice in this particular equation.

    Its not an easy T square to deal with however I imagine that you take pride in the hours you put in, and the attention to difficult and detailed work that you can achieve compared to anyone else.

    I hope that your Libra Sun can achieve the recognition for what you can do so well Atalanta. I am sure you do a very good job indeeed. Sometimes we like to hear that recognition from the persons who are important in our lives. When that recognition is less forthcoming from loved ones we tend to set out to achieve/prove that recognition through work.

    The “workaholic” factor can be out of balance when ones feelings about “not enough recognition” are ignored. Its a good plan to work with the Moon and the softer sides to the equation because then – the Mars Sun Saturn drive can be potentialised with out causing any “damage” in other areas of life. An extreme example might be literally working oneself to death.

    Perhaps the challenge of being your own boss – or in charge of your own department can be separated from how other relationships work. Using the Sun as a switch – turning the volume down when that is required?

    best regards
    Kingsley

  28. 28 kingsley July 1, 2009 at 18:32

    Dear Atalanta, I have edited my earlier reply to you slightly. There were a couple of sentences that I thought needed adjusting. Perhaps that is my need to say things right and to read things over when posting earlier in the mornings.

    best regards
    Kingsley

  29. 29 Atalanta July 1, 2009 at 20:00

    Kingsley – I didn’t see your earlier version, but thank you so much for your helpful reply. My sun is the ruler of my Leo ascendant so I guess with Vesta involved in my t-square I feel a strong need to ‘shine’ in some area of partnership, mothering or work. It is probable that I feel less appreciated in my Sun/Libra and Mars/Cancer, but better able to self-monitor and self-appreciate in my work area as well as get affirmative feedback from others. That makes sense to me. Little light-bulbs are going on in my mind.

    I also have a Pisces Moon and a strong Neptune so the risk of working-to-death will not apply! :) It’s not that I do very long hours, but when I’m working I’m extremely focussed and perfectionist until it’s done.

    I also liked the idea about the Sun being a switch that can be turned up and down. I shall contemplate on that one.

    Thanks again! :)

  30. 30 karen February 13, 2010 at 01:39

    hola yo quiero saber que pasa o que quiere decir que mi vesta este en 4 casa con aries

  31. 31 kingsley February 13, 2010 at 08:43

    Hola Karen. Es interesante que la traducción al español de Google para Vesta es “vestir”. Vesta en la carta de la astrología es donde tienden a concentrarse en una sola idea o la pasión. En Aries que puede significar la valentía individual, la audacia de tomar riesgos spontenaiety y otras actividades que son auto orientada.

    Vesta es más fuerte en la tabla cuando se está en conjunción con otros puntos de tabla así en mi opinión, la traducción de signos para Vesta puede ser general e incluirá las descripciones usuales para cada signo.

    Kingsley

    Hello Karen. It is interesting that the google Spanish translation for Vesta is “dress”. Vesta in the Astrology chart is where we tend to focus on a single idea or passion. In Aries that can mean individual courage, boldness taking risks spontenaiety and other pursuits which are self orientated.

    Vesta is stronger in the chart when it is conjunct other chart points so in my view the Sign translations for Vesta can be general and incorporate the usual descriptions for each sign.

  32. 32 Parttime June 14, 2010 at 02:50

    Hallo,

    I came to this article because I was looking for info about vespa, but found only a little.
    My Vesta is exactly on my Sun and Venus in Capricorn, which are conjunct my Asc in the very early degrees of Aquarius.

    I have discussed with friends if they consider me as a nercisst but they told me that by no way could someone call me a narcissist.
    I dont feel at ease to look at myself in the mirror whenever is another person around. However when I am on my own I think I am a narcissist. Probably the 12th house placement plays a role.
    Some concider me quite egocentric, I also have an Aries Moon that helps quite a lot.
    But what could be the influence of Vesta conjunct Sun, Venus and sextile Mars,MC in Scorpio???
    F**k!! I should have been famous by now!
    Hmmm I think that I loose sth. Hehe!!!

  33. 33 AriesSunCapricornMoon April 2, 2011 at 06:13

    I have Saturn Conjunct Vesta in Gemini in the 9th House.

    Saturn in my chart is the handle of a bucket(or funnel) pattern. How would this work? Would Vesta, along with Saturn, affect the rest of my chart?

    My chart is linked in the website address.

  34. 34 Mary June 11, 2011 at 11:43

    Hi, I just came across your website. I was actually googling ceres. I was interested in MK’s comment a couple of years ago about her narcissistic parents. I have a 23 degree of pisces midheaven also. I lost my father at the same time – also extremely narcissistic. I have no contact with my mother who was is also narcissistic. My father was 93. Amazing, huh? I now have ceres going through the same house and I am volunteering at a food pantry. Just for interest sake my birth is 7/20/47 at 4:30 am Boston, MA. I have been an astrologer for years. My natal vesta is in my 12th house and I have a crazy sister. I am both fascinated and disgusted by narcissists. I am interested in any feedback. Thank you.

  35. 35 kingsley June 11, 2011 at 13:22

    Hi Mary, thanks for your comment about Vesta. There does seem to be alot going on in the chart for transitting Vesta conjunct your MC. It does seem to be a coincidence that you and MK both experienced loss back then.

    I am looking at the transit chart for 4th April 2008 when the Moon and Vesta were conjunct your MC.

    You have a midpoint Pluto Chiron at you natal mc so that will always be a trigger point for transits however I am not convinced that transiting Vesta has that much oomph in astrology.

    Its interesting that BML (Black Moom Lilith) is transiting natal Jupiter then. Transiting Jupiter just over your BML/Descendant and progressed Moon conjunct BML. If you look at the prog chart only the moon and Jupiter are on the 4th cusp, the father. At that time transiting south node is conjunct your Moon(ruler of ascendant) so back then, there was an intensity of feelings designed to help you put things into perspective.

    Directed Jupiter is conjunct BML in the 7th. There does seem to be a few contacts with Jupiter and BML. I wonder if you were almost relieved at your fathers death back then? prog jupiter is also square Saturn but that aspect would have been in place for a very long time.

    Uranus conjunct Vesta in the 12th must be always full of surprises, ones that you do not see coming.

    Best regards
    Kingsley

  36. 36 charl September 24, 2011 at 07:38

    Me, my progressed saturn will be exact vesta by christmas. In cancer in 2nd house. That is my weakest area of life. I’m 67 but young at heart. I’m close to family of late. My sex life was cut off years ago and I did have a brief encounter with non duality in 2003.
    So far nothing is working out to renew it. My grand child is cancer, my first boy friend who I am in touch with, my daughter and a friend. Any comments welcome.

  37. 37 kingsley September 24, 2011 at 08:29

    Hello Charl, thanks for posting a comment. Progressed Saturn moves very very slowly. Unless you are talking about Solar Arc progressions? Sounds like you put Saturn and Vesta down to ageing romantic relationships? k

  38. 38 Niki November 30, 2011 at 21:29

    hello : ) – i was studying a chart that has vesta in scorpio conjunct ascendant. this person is famous. i’m sure he is a narcissist…. hmmm. Me, on the other hand, i have vesta in taurus in the 7th. i just had a thought wondering – i bet it could mean that my mate would be an attention seeking/famous person. looking back over my life so far, my ‘mates’ have all been immature self seeking brats; tho i also have lilith in gemini in 7th. i had always thought that vesta in 7th just felt like i probably wouldn’t marry. i married late at 47; only lasted a few months. and haven’t had or wanted a boyfriend or sex since then; 12 long years. tho really it has been a relief to not have to deal with the drama. admittedly, i have been getting sick, getting well in those years. there’s some drama – sigh. any comment? ty

  39. 39 Niki November 30, 2011 at 21:34

    in case u wanted to look at my chart: 3-10-51,11:28pm, winston-salem, nc — ty for ur time

  40. 40 kingsley December 1, 2011 at 08:05

    Hello Niki, thanks for you query. Even the famous ones are self seeking brats sometimes. Yes Vesta is angular in your chart however there are other considerations to your seventh house ruler. Vesta in the seventh is when we find that quality in others to learn more about our self. Its complicated one might say but there “is something about mary” that attracts that kind of relationship. I agree that relationships are difficult and there are alternative ways to live life. Vesta on the ascendent peoplpe will spend a great deal of time to look their best, their clothes and appearance etc. In some cases it doesnt mean they are outright Narcissists however they can exploit that element of personality to become popular and thus be the centre of attention more so.

    Best
    k

  41. 41 annette gordon January 13, 2012 at 16:37

    Thankyou for a very good blog. Interesting and fits to connect vesta and asc or asc ruler aspects. Would you think aspects or conjunctions of personal planets and neptune natally or by prog could lend empathy to character or emphisize the unrelatability? (simplistically thinking)

    Cheers

  42. 42 kingsley January 14, 2012 at 16:07

    Hello Annette, Neptune is a mysterious kind of planet. The “great Dissolver” as I call it has a tendency to add complex emotional qualities such as idealisation, glamour, sprituality, euphoria, confusion, deleriousness and many more “tints” to life. I agree that Neptune adds an element which could be useful for Empathy, “being in tune”, good sensing skills and even clairvoyent ability however with Empathy one is required to put themselves in the same position as the other. Not only sense what the person is going through but “feel it too” .

    Its a good question that you ask about Neptune. Neptune does bring sensitivity to the chart but it would depend on other chart strengths and full natal picture to establish the difference between compassioned psychiatry and unrelatability. The proof would be whether the person could separate themselves enough to be empathic as opposed to overwhelmed.

    The idea of dissasociation and Neptune is well researched and often found in charts of depressed, addictive and dependant personalities. It would take an evolved person to use Neptune with their personal planets to use empathic skills well. Empathy is is quite a Chironic astrological attribute and that means the person understands pain to a certain degree whereas Neptune wants to transmute pain or numb it.

    Mental health and astrology is very interesting and when looking at Narcissism there could be a number of underlying chart dynamics indicating such personality. Strongly placed Vesta in many cases can indicate Narcissistic tendencies, not forgetting that these types of personalities can be very successful individuals. k

    • 43 annette gordon January 14, 2012 at 17:16

      I find this so intriguing. The narcissus and thepeople who attract. L.A. would be great place to study. If you looked at my chart it would be textbook n.p.d. (hehe) 23/10/58 7′ aquarius rising. Can see how adding in fixed stars would define more of the character.
      Im an arrogant astrologer with focus on health and family traits! Will def try to get a data base together. Also interested in the 15′ leo connection. Thanks for your reply.

      Regards A

  43. 44 annette gordon January 14, 2012 at 18:21

    Ad…if the basis for disorder is the lack of mirroring the true nature of child leading to the building of false nature, one could see this akin to the dualist nature definedin buddism.
    Perhaps the lack of spiritual awareness in west and focus on materialism for values has lead to increase of narcissim and drug abuse. Neptune moving into pisces has in the past (i think) brought about new religions and ‘messiahs’ drugs.

    Cheers

  44. 45 kingsley January 14, 2012 at 20:30

    That is a good point about Mirroring and attachments Annette. I saw a movie about narcistic young man tonight and see a few similar clients from time to time. best K

  45. 46 Mary January 15, 2012 at 06:35

    Thank you so much for sending me the email comments. I just saw your answer of June 11th. You (Kingsley) are indeed an excellent astrologer. I think many lifetimes are required to be able to practice astrology with such excellence. I have studied astrology since 1976 and I am fascinated. I was fascinated by your answer regarding my father. It was a relief – the loss of my father. He was a surgeon and physician – so very intelligent. At that time of my father’s death, it was a foregone conclusion that I would be disinherited. My sister took over my mother’s money and excluded me. I was so excluded that on June 15, 2011, I was never notified of my mother’s sale of her home – a doctor’s home. I was never included in the sharing (among 5 siblings) of my father’s magnificent paintings or the valuables in the home – which were incredibly expensive and numerous. My family always criticized me and lied about me constantly and I was the “scapegoat”. I could go on and on about their transgressions, but I won’t. I will probably never see any of them again, including my mother who is still alive. My sister has taken her into her home and I have been excluded. Neptune ruled tenth house and neptune in the fourth house – is how I see it. I was physically abused by them as a child and mentally abused as an adult. I had four wonderful grandparents who were my angels and protected me when they were alive. However, my children and grandchildren love me.
    Mary

  46. 47 kingsley January 15, 2012 at 08:27

    Hi Mary, thanks for your kind words. I am glad you have been enjoying the comments coming through here.

    warm regards
    k

  47. 48 annette gordon January 18, 2012 at 11:44

    Hello, back again. Your article has more depth with su cessive readings. Vesta would rule virgo eh? Am now checking out stelliums re npd…
    I understand narcissus’ parents were basically water origin? Though narc mother and echo had dealings with pan, i keep coming back to the reflection in water and his parents association with water, and daffodiles growing bside river styx. gestault has been effective, would you suggest other therapies going on culpepper elemental healing, or using the neighbouring elements to reach the unobtainable one. ie using water or earth to help a sag stellium to access missing water
    namaste Annette

  48. 51 kingsley January 18, 2012 at 17:47

    Good to hear of your research Annette and your’e visualising the water in the pond. I am not sure whether fundamental chart information and the balance in ones Elements is something used for delineating narcissism in Astrology? It is possible to identify mental health issues or at least, psychological drives to a certain degree using Astrology.

    There are many personality types/disorders according to the DSM4 and narcissim is one of them. Vesta an the ascendant or midheaven are strong contenders for this attribute as are other angular placements or conjunctions of Vesta to planets.

    The Black Moon Lilith aspects to Moon or Sun and Venus are also strong indicators of transference, where parents issues interplay.

    Gestalt Therapy is useful Annette depending on the individual. I agree that one can “learn” or model other peoples qualities with the aim of creating balance in personality. Perhaps people with contrasting Elemental balances (Fire Earth Air or Water) can also learn to implement those lacking qualities over time. Some people are attracted to others who possess the quaility they are lacking too.

    Curing Narcissism requires the person to develop mentalization skills and on some level be open to awareness work while establishing a good therapeutic alliance with a therapist.

    Let me know how the reaearch goes?

    Best regards
    Kingsley

  49. 52 annette gordon January 18, 2012 at 19:27

    Cheers. Have read 10 pt criteria from dmh1V (?) gather there is some dispute, and the misdiagnosis between anziety disorder or aspergers. Former mother in law works with autistic children, hopefully can get selection of birth data from her.
    An encompassing project. Again, thanks for your vast knowledge!

    A

  50. 53 annette gordon January 19, 2012 at 09:24

    Back again, like a mosquito. Hope you wont mind my questions. With sycronicity am being presented with charts and strong vesta/blkmoon placements. Would u look at mars sun vesta for womans chart and venus moon vesta for a blokes? Also, keep forgetting about the unaspected sun. (hehe)
    I cant find much available depth on vesta yet though have connected junus and vesta somehow. Cybele selene cults? Like having scorpio as esoteric ruler.
    Also, am usually cynical of most times given for charts myself so that negates mh or asc aspects for many.
    Would guess saturn as dad is impotant. Vesta spurned poseiden…though mayb she was too focussed on cronus. Can see why freud loved.

    Cheers Annette

    • 54 kingsley January 19, 2012 at 10:26

      Sounds like you have a lot of questions Annette, thanks for thinking out aloud in the comments section. The answer to your question about male/female delineations is “no”. Some men have higher estrogen and Moon Venus where some women have placements in masculine positions and tend to defy any attachment to specific gender orientation in astrology. k

  51. 55 annette gordon January 19, 2012 at 11:45

    Thanks Kingsley. Follows the not being able to tell sex from chart. Thanks for ur patience now back to mysteries…mwhahah
    Cheers

  52. 56 Michele February 22, 2012 at 13:16

    Hi Kingsly>very interesting>just discovered Vesta and that it conjuncts my sun @ 9 degrees Virgo in 10th>I have been telling everyone I’m a narrcissist for years>I also need time alone>how significant is Vespa conjunct sun?
    Love n light

  53. 58 kingsley February 22, 2012 at 13:25

    I would say significant Michelle.

  54. 59 kingsley February 24, 2012 at 10:12

    Whenever the Sun and Moon are involved with Vesta one can expect that role models – Mother Father have transferred their own self interested personality “down the line”. Much of Astrology points transferrence concepts and our early family dynamics when we analize personality from the natal chart. We are however, born with certain temperaments that “lend themselves to receive” the dynamics in our early nurturing environment.

    It makes sense that if a narcissistic father pays little attention to a child, the child then learns to live in his or her own world as a matter of psychological defense. The Father, role models that self interest is ok and thus the child feels ok about developing that kind of personality too.

    One must be careful in asessing the degrees of narcisism from chart details because there may be signs of greater compassion and empathy elsewhere in the details. Sun Vesta may be a learned and ingrained influence that can be “worked on” and differentiated in personality.

    In other words there are some astrological systems in the natal chart that can be louder in volume at various times in life and that we can evolve to turn down the “volumes” or at least filter out our “temperament vulnerabilities” and the transferences that amplify them. Does that make sense?

    k

  55. 60 annette February 24, 2012 at 13:06

    Guess ill add rudd chart to files. He likes 0′ aries. Wkwk

  56. 61 Michele March 3, 2012 at 03:22

    Hi Kingsley and thank u for the prompt reply>it is interesting how u wrote about the parents narrcissism, as I believe that describes my view of my father quite acuretly (sp) and I believe that it has made a profound impression on me>thank u for your answer>it makes sense and gives me incentive to meditate upon it >cheerz =)

  57. 62 Mary June 26, 2012 at 06:36

    Hello, again, I was reading all of the comments again. I wrote to you in June of 2011 about my deceased father. Lo and behold, you are so right or you were very right on the point of my vesta conjunct uranus being full of surprises! I found out on June 15, 2011, that my mother sold the long time family homestead and moved! There was a sale of her possessions at an auction – all beautiful things she had for years, antiques and oil paintings as my father was an acclaimed artist! I was never informed. The house was sold on that day and my mother moved and never told me where she went. It has been an ongoing contest to hide my inheritance and the other four siblings have helped her do this. I now have Vulcanus exactly conjunct my sun at 26 degrees in my first house – and I am wondering what will happen next. There have always been fights over money in my family. My mother kept her own sister’s inheritance from their mother’s will until her sister called in an attorney. My mother did not want my father’s brother’s children to get an inheritance from the death of their father after the death of the grandmother. She just turned 90 on June 21st. It seems absolutely crazy and my friends have said for years that I am the only sane one in my family. But I wonder! Anyway, it is wonderful reading your great astrological writings. I appreciate your intelligence. Thank you! Mary


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